Illogical by TRUTH

LORENA: people were still digesting the idea that

we might have a housing crisis. And I'm running

around like Chicken Little saying, we are fully

in a housing crisis, we're on the verge of a homelessness

crisis. And I swear people thought that that was

a crazy conversation to have.

MAGGIE: On any given day, you do see someone on

city council or someone working for the bank downtown

sitting next to someone who's experiencing homelessness.

TERRANCE: You're listening to Illogical by True.

This podcast decodes the language, decisions,

and hidden areas of local power that often seems

illogical to residents. The goal of this podcast

is to empower people to engage locally and to

understand how significant it is to be aware and

active. At the local level. Once local government

is logical, it will become meaningful and provide

the benefits that allow for people to live a thriving

life. Hello, I'm Tarrant Roof and today on Illogical

by Truth, we have two amazing human beings, two

people I care about deeply. We have Maggie Kane,

who is the executive director, CEO, I'm not sure

which title it is, of A Place at the Table. And

for those of you who know a Pay What You Can Cafe,

Maggie has one of the largest in the country.

And she has committed her life to making sure

that everyone has a place at the table. And so

located in downtown Raleigh, Maggie came with

us today to really wrestle with the role of nonprofit,

a personal story of leading and guiding in this

way. And then we also have with us Lorena McDowell.

Lorena McDowell is director of the largest county

and North Carolina affordable housing efforts.

And she wears many hats within that title. And

we'll explore that as we go through. But she was

the first human being that I met that was able

to cast a five to 10 year vision on how to be

aggressive on affordable housing. Not just locally,

but she shared how that local vision could impact

both the region, the state and the country. So

with that, we have two amazing human beings that

will help us understand and sort of wrestle with

the ideas of homelessness and affordable housing.

And so today, welcome Lorena, welcome Maggie.

I'm glad you're here.

LORENA: Thank you, happy to be here.

MAGGIE: We think you are equally as amazing, Caris.

Absolutely.

TERRANCE: Alright, so Maggie and Lorena, you both

have blazed trails in the areas of helping and

advocating for those who are without. As sort

of your story, your brand. Without food or without

homes, your journey has influenced your local

government, your local communities. How did you

get to this point where those without has become

your personal career story? Lorena, we'll start

with you.

LORENA: Oh, that's easy, because I'm a person

with lived experience. I experienced housing insecurity

and instability when I was a youth. I spent most

of my high school time in group home shelters

on friends' couches and got to really experience

kind of the other side of the world, right? The

other side of this. And I remember, and I can

tell you the night, laying on the cot that I was

on at HomeAway, when I decided people should not

live like this. And I'm gonna grow up and I'm

gonna fix it all, right? Now, obviously, I was

a 15-year-old dreaming at that time, but I figured

out a way to come back to this work and make what

I think is the greatest impact that I can do on

the folks that I feel are akin to me and really

want to serve.

TERRANCE: And I can see that in the way you engage

human beings, not just in your office, but you're

probably the most present. County staff member

that I've ever seen in my life. But you're actually

in the community that you want to be, and that

brings me to Maggie. Maggie is present everywhere.

And so Maggie, how did you get to that point,

to that store?

MAGGIE: Oh, I don't know about everywhere, that's

a lot of pressure. Just really fortunate to be

at this point. As someone who grew up privileged

and advantaged, or with advantage, I grew up volunteering.

My mom had us volunteering in a lot of different

places, and I, at a young age, started to notice

the disparities in equities, the system, and the

divide between people. And started to just really

notice that, open my eyes. Started to get to know

people and be in relationship with people who

were different than me, people who were experiencing

poverty, experiencing homelessness, and started

to see that we, in our town, in this town I grew

up in, and at the time was proud to live in, I

wasn't proud to live in anymore. And we needed

a place where everyone could come together, where

some of those divides started to come down a bit.

TERRANCE: You know what's fascinating about both

of you? You have become the face of homelessness

and housing. So when people think about that,

they normally, they normally think about it. So

most individuals try to distance themselves from

those two categories. And y'all like lean into

that space. And I think it's fascinating because

you do it with passion. It comes off extremely

authentic. What encourages you or forces you to

do that, to be in a space where multiple people

run from or not want to be associated with? Homelessness,

hunger, housing. How do y'all feel confident leaning

into that space when people who are volunteering

at your cafe may not be as comfortable? People

who have homes and don't have to think about housing

wouldn't be as comfortable. How are you so comfortable?

How are you so comfortable in these spaces where

most people are not?

MAGGIE: Sure. How are we so comfortable? We have

to be. We have to do it. Our world will not survive

if we don't. Especially sitting in my shoes as

a white privileged woman, we have to be the ones

that do that. We have to lean in. You know, you

set a really high bar for both of us to say we're

the faces.

LORENA: Really high bar.

MAGGIE: So we are leaning all the way in and we

are not stopping because we have a lot of work

to do here in our area. And the answer is we just

have to.

LORENA: Yeah, it has to get done. I mean, I think,

you know, for me, it's a calling, you know, it

started from me experiencing that. But beyond

that, I think it's just always been a calling.

Anytime that I've leaned into this work, I felt

fulfilled. I see the efforts on the ground. I

can see that my efforts are helping folks who

feel akin to me, right? Like these are my folks,

these are my people. And so it's really important

to me, even just for like my mental health to

do this work. I can't imagine doing anything else

with my life than trying to help people have the

thing that I think we all should have, if nothing

else, a roof over our head. I mean, it's the most

basic human right, right? Food to eat.

MAGGIE: Yep, yep.

TERRANCE: And I want to give a caveat, or at least

I want to put an asterisk here. They would never

put themselves on the face of anything. These

are very humble individuals. But if you go, they're

located in Wake County and in Raleigh, which is

in North Carolina. So they're in one of the fastest

growing regions of the country. They are in one

of the fastest growing tech hubs in the country.

And so you're gonna see several... Quality of

life indexes or indicators that say that this

is one of the best places to live. And you have

two of the individuals that are living and spending

their time on the inverse of that conversation.

And so most people would rather be at the top

of the charts on best place to live, fastest growing

city, whatever those may be. They choose to be

on the other side of. On homelessness, hunger,

and being unhoused. And so I humbly would just

say that they wouldn't accept those titles to

be in the face of those two categories in their

city. But it's evident if you ask any human being

around her.

LORENA: And what you brought up actually is kind

of why our work is so necessary because we're

growing so fast. Right, like Wake is the second

fastest growing county in the entire nation, right?

And it just continues to speed up. We are a desirable

place, we are a tech hub. We bring these high

earning jobs here, which puts more pressure on

our market, right? In terms of cost, we have a

lower vacancy rate in Wake County than the nation.

And the nation has a housing stock crisis. We

have an affordability crisis, yes, but we have

a stock crisis, full stop. All the way up to $3

million houses in our community, we don't have

enough of those for the current demand. All the

way up to 3 million. And so you can only imagine

what that means for those who just want to start

their home. They almost don't even exist anymore.

And a part of that is because we're so desirable.

It pushes people out of our market. It pushes

people to the edges and the fringes. It pushes

them out of their homes. It makes them now need

places like Maggie. Because if they can get a

meal from you, they can maybe pay some of their

rent or for a room to keep over their head. So

what you're talking about is kind of what drives

the need for this kind of work. I think it's beautiful

for communities to be desirable and grow, but

it should be intentional, sustainable, smart growth.

MAGGIE: And if we're going to say we're top leading

city, we're top leading place to live, it needs

to mean that that's for everyone and not just

one group of people.

TERRANCE: Absolutely. And that you mentioned housing,

most individuals think they know about housing

and homelessness. Especially in their community.

So Lorena, what would you say is surprisingly

unknown by most people when it comes to housing?

LORENA: That's a good question. So I think that

we often lean on the old narrative that most people

who are homeless are homeless because they have

mental health issues, because they have substance

abuse issues. That exists, but the number one

growing demographic that we have here is first

time homelessness. It's people who were able to

afford their homes before, but the cost of housing

has outpaced the increase in income. The need

for stock because of our growth has outpaced the

amount of stock that we're creating. The supports

that people need if they end up on the verge,

on the edge, don't exist. So we have a system

and a stock that has failed our residents. So

I know there's a lot of conversation on behavior

health and mental health support Saturday and

those are necessary and it's growing across the

nation. We need those things. But the reality

is we also just have your regular old average

resident who used to be able to afford to live

in a community who's priced out now and just can't

afford to live here anymore. I think most people

are really surprised here that most of us are

a few paychecks away from housing and stability

as well.

TERRANCE: And what would you say is the reason

for people being so confident about what they

perceive to understand around housing?

LORENA: I think because people stick to what's

most visible to them, right? And they don't really

dig under the surface. And I've only been in this

community for five years. And I recall, well,

you remember when I first got here, we were talking

about housing and security and people were still

digesting the idea that we might have a housing

crisis. And I'm running around like Chicken Little

saying we are fully in a housing crisis, we're

on the verge of a homelessness crisis. And I swear

people thought that that was a crazy conversation

to have at the time. But when you've worked in

other cities and seen, you know, as I have kind

of the progression of communities like this, you

know what's coming. And I think a lot of people

just weren't ready for that conversation. But

like I often say, you know, and our county manager

often says the same thing as well as Wake is not

a small town anymore. It's not a small town. We

have big city, big town, big county problems.

And we're still talking about solutions that work

for small little communities.

TERRANCE: Now before we, I have a question for

Maggie that's connected to the increase in homelessness,

but can you help us understand the difference

between a housing crisis and a homeless crisis?

Can you help us understand those two?

LORENA: I mean, they're connected. They are forever

connected. But so we have a housing stock crisis.

So when we talk about needing stock, we are talking

about we should have a stock of units in our community

that are affordable to people at whatever level

the need is, whatever their income is. And here

in Wake County, we don't have any stock that is

affordable to anybody at any income. We don't

have enough of it all the way to $3 million homes.

So when I say we have a stock problem, I mean,

we have a stock problem. And then when you start

looking at incomes, we actually have over 60,000

people in Wake County who are spending more than

30% of their income just keeping a roof over their

head. And when you are spending that much of your

income or more, and the majority of them are spending

more than 50% of their income, which means they're

what we call extremely cost burdened, that means

that you are on the verge of losing that. It's

not stable. And a lot of them are falling into

homelessness as a result of that. Or they're making

other choices that they wouldn't normally have

to make. Their children aren't going to the schools

they want them to. They're not eating the healthy

meals that they should be eating because they're

just trying to keep a roof over their head. So

that's the housing crisis that we have. And the

homelessness crisis is a direct result of not

having the stock and not having the supports that

our community needs.

TERRANCE: Now Maggie, you have created, again,

this is me. How I see Maggie. Maggie is a very

humble person, so this is my perception. So I

just want to start.

MAGGIE: I'm rolling my eyes right now.

TERRANCE: So Maggie, you have created a local

restaurant that has become the doorway to the

city of Raleigh. And when I say doorway, that's

a place that you can go. In the snapshot. See

all of the city. In that restaurant. And it's

probably one of the only spaces in the city where

you can see a CEO eating alongside an unhoused

person. In your restaurant called A Place at the

Table, how did you create a local space? Where

those who are normally hidden in cities become

your target audience.

MAGGIE: Yeah. Thanks for that question. And I

do to on the last question you just asked, I just

want to throw in here there that yesterday we

were together and we heard the stat that David

said. What was it? One million people a year ago

and now it's one point two years ago.

LORENA: Yeah, we're at one point two and we're

trending at twenty twenty five. I think it is

to be at one point five. Right.

MAGGIE: Yeah. So you think about that. And it's

just that extreme growth really quickly, which

will lead to all these things that you were you

were saying. And we've seen that at a place to

table, surely. But let me back up a little bit

and just say what a place to table is to give

some context is we are a normal restaurant. We

look and feel like a normal restaurant. When you

when you walk in, it looks and feels like a normal

restaurant. You smell good food. You see fun photos

on the wall. You see friendly faces. And that's

when you get up to the register, you start to

see some suggested pricing. So people can choose

to pay that price. They can pay more and pay it

forward. They can pay less. They can pay by volunteering.

They can pay using a place card that gets handed

out to a lot of different organizations in the

triangle. And in different partnerships that we

have. And so we are a pay what you can restaurant

where, as Taryn said, it's the city's doorstep.

We say all are welcome. Community and good food

for all, regardless of means. So we use good food

as a tool towards creating community and providing

a place really where all are welcome and all can

come in there. So on any given day, you do see

someone on city council or someone working for

the bank downtown sitting next to someone who's

experiencing homelessness or someone who's bringing

their kids in and can only afford a couple of

the meals out of the five or six people they bring,

right? So it really is a place that has brought

this culture of inclusivity and hospitality and

dignity and I just feel lucky to be a part of

it. But a couple years ago, you know, to your

earlier point about how cost of living has increased

and it's becoming a place where people can't live

anymore. And we want to be a place where everyone

can thrive. When, before we opened, we committed

to taking care of our team and making sure that

our team, could thrive and live and succeed and

live successful lives. And so we said we'd always

pay a living wage. And five years ago when we

opened, that living wage in Wake County was $15

an hour. And it wasn't even really the living

wage. It was the suggested living wage. And it

was $15 an hour. And you fast forward right now,

we're sitting at $19 an hour. And I think about

that, we still can't live on $19 an hour. So,

and that's for a single person without children.

Exactly. So, we at A Place To Table are always

gonna try to do better and better day by day,

as often and best as we can. But we said if we

can do all these things for our staff and take

care of our team, who's gonna take care of the

city's doorstep, everyone walking in the door,

if we do that for a year, we've done the right

thing. So, I don't even remember your earlier

question.

TERRANCE: No, I mean, you touched it well. We're

just trying to figure out how did you create that

doorway? Like, how do you create that mosaic picture

of all different faces of people enjoying one

space?

MAGGIE: You know, you make people feel welcome.

You make people feel a part of it. You create

opportunities for people to be a part of it. And

for me, it's not me. You listen to other people

who know more than you. I came in with no expertise

on anything. I came in with a team of people that

had expertise in the nonprofit space and the restaurant

space and the legal space. I truly don't take

credit for any of this because I had none of this

expertise. And I think that the way good things

happen, the way places like this happen is when

the community comes together and you make people

feel a part of it. So we started working on this

in 2014. We opened in 2018 and we had all these

folks that had joined in into this cafe, community

cafe movement. We opened our doors and that has

only continued. Being in the restaurant, as I

said, we've got the pay what you can model, but

you walk in, first and foremost, there is always

a door greeter. And that door greeter is making

sure you feel welcome, you feel loved, you feel

a part of it to that earlier point. And so you

feel like you're a part of this thing and you

are welcome and you understand the mission because

it can be scary to walk into a place that there

are prices on the menu, even if they're suggested.

And so that door greeter is number one. But then

number two and more importantly is our staff.

The staff that we said we're gonna continue to

take care of, they make people feel loved every

day. I'm not in there every day, they are. They're

doing the hard work, they're showing up. They

are loving people, they're knowing their stories.

They are then connecting to the resources they

need. That they may not find in other places.

And so I think this is a long answer, winded answer

to your question, but it's like you hire really

good people, you make people feel a part of it.

Those people you hire make people feel a part

of it and you do the best you can and treat people

the way they should be treated.

TERRANCE: You know, it's one thing to talk about

the exchange between dollars and meals. What's

fascinating about your restaurant is when people

have to volunteer. Now, even at the volunteer

level, you have very well-off, they could just

give you money and go about their day. They come

into the restaurant, they watch dishes, they sweep

the floor, they hug people who are unhoused and

housed, and they don't have to leave their living

room. They can just send you a lot of money and

just. So you have even mastered the idea of merging

class at the volunteer space. And usually people

volunteer along class levels. So they're all gonna

volunteer at one place that's nice and clean and

neat, or they're gonna volunteer here because

it has, in the crevices of certain places. How

did you mix that volunteer pool to where it's

almost every class is represented in your restaurant

at the volunteer? They're not getting a penny.

It's coming to give their time.

MAGGIE: As many dishes as I do, they might hope

they're getting a penny. No, I think, so as a

place table works, I said those different ways

to pay, but there are folks that, to Terrence's

point, that sign up to volunteer. There are folks

that have a weekly shift with us, and there are

folks that just show up anytime and volunteer.

And everyone has access to a meal. We don't ask

questions, but I think we just create a space.

And we have a mission where people feel a part

of it. And we've got folks that make connections

between people, but I also think that food is

a tool to bringing people together, just like

volunteering is a tool to bringing people together.

And so when you're doing dishes next to someone

that you don't know, those barriers and walls

start to break down. And so just like when you're

sitting next to someone and sharing a meal, so

I think we just created a space where people can

do that. And I think what you don't know, you

don't know. And then when you do know, you know

you gotta change it, and you know you gotta be

a part of it. And so I think that us just opening

our doors has allowed people to see that, hey,

I actually could talk to someone who may be different

than me. I actually could be in spaces that people

who are different than me, and I want to be. So

I think we just created the space. The community

has built it.

TERRANCE: Now, Lorena, you're leading the housing

efforts in Wake County. How do you help people

or someone understand the current state of housing

and potential strategies to address that? Because

it's the talk of the nation. And so how do we

help us understand? Because Maggie will see volume

increase based on housing. She will see volunteer

trends based on housing. Even staffing patterns

are based on housing. And so how do we help? Can

you help us understand that picture to some degree?

LORENA: I think what you're touching on is that

housing is kind of a part of everything.

TERRANCE: That's good.

LORENA: And I think people look at housing and

they, especially having, being a housing expert,

people ask me, well, what's the answer? Just give

me the silver bullet. Just what's the easiest

way to fix it? And that doesn't exist, right?

It is tied to soulmate, it's tied to income in

your community, as Maggie said. Thank you for

paying a livable wage. Because if you had not,

that's just more that I've got to figure out.

And so I often talk about housing, I love what

I do. It is my life's passion, 100%. But creating

affordable units and focusing on affordability

is only one side of it. If we don't figure out

how to make income start keeping pace with costs

here, we're going to be creating ourselves forever

and forever. We're going to be trying to figure

out ways to create more units. But for us, we

have to come at it from many different angles.

And so in our department, which a lot of folks

probably don't know, most counties don't have

housing departments. So we're a little unique.

It's a new thing that in a lot of places in the

country are starting to do it. But Wake was really

at the cutting kind of edge of this. Our commissioners

a number of years ago realized that, okay, there's

this affordability issue, they thought, at the

time, right? It was happening around our community.

This little issue, this little thing. And, you

know, but thankfully, they started to kind of

wake up and realize something was going on. They

commissioned a study. The study said, yeah, you

are short a lot of stock. You need something.

This affordability plan was created. Then they

had this plan and no stat, you know, who's going

to do it, right? Because there wasn't a housing

department. And so our commissioners commissioned

a new housing department to be risen. And so I,

you know, they did a national search for a director

and that's how y'all got stuck with me. So I've

been here for-

MAGGIE: Oh my God.

LORENA: You're so sweet. We've been here for five

years building the department and staffing it.

But as we've done that, we really had to take

into account that housing affordability is a spectrum,

right? And so we kind of touch all the pieces

along it. All the way from, we run the largest

men's shelter in North Carolina at Salamonty Street

Center, right? We fund all the shelters because

they need money to do the work they do. We have

hundreds of vouchers for permanent part of housing.

And we've done thousands of units for affordable

housing development because we've got to develop

new units. We're preserving thousands of units

wherever we can. It's kind of, you got to be all

over the spectrum of it, right? Like you've got

to be all across it because there's no one silver

bullet. So for us in terms of increasing units,

that's been our main focus right now. We have

incentivized over 3,500 new or preserved units

to be built or preserved. A lot of communities

talk about, well, just build new units. That's

great, but when you're as desirable as we are,

developers are buying up those currently existing

affordable housing. We call it NOAA, naturally

occurring affordable housing. You can't build

your way out of that. You have to also save that

and preserve that. And when you do that, you have

to save and preserve communities as well. People

who want to stay in communities, they were born

in and raised in and from, but if we don't help

preserve that, they'll be priced out of. So we're

working on that. Yes, we want to be a part of

new development too. So new development. Then

there's landlord engagement, talking to landlords

and education and helping them understand the

benefits of working with our folks. You don't

have to be afraid to work with our folks who've

experienced homelessness or who might have a voucher.

In fact, there's benefits to it. COVID did a lot

of things. That were horrible. One of the things

that I think it did that helped us was it helped

a lot of people realize a couple of things. One,

a lot of people were on the verge and didn't think

they were. Right, because their financial investors

told them, just save six months of all your bills

and you'll be fine. But what happens when it's

two years later and you're still out of work?

Right, we had a lot of people who would consider

them, we call them NIMBY or not in my backyard.

We don't want your shelter or affordable housing

in our community. A lot of them just needed education

on who those people were because they found themselves

calling for programs during COVID as well. So

that's really important. And then I think also

what it helped people to realize is that healthy

communities thrive when we are looking at serving

everyone, at all income levels, whatever their

needs are, behavioral health, mental health, whatever.

Because if you don't, you start to see, your community

doesn't look and feel the same anymore anyways.

So saying that in my backyard doesn't really help

when you start to see 10 cities pop up because

we haven't been helping the least of us. So it

kind of started to expose, I think, a lot of that

and helped us to kind of, it blurred the line

between the us and them. And I think that's really

helpful for our community so we can move forward

together as one community.

TERRANCE: Now, I heard you mention sort of landlord

engagement. You're pretty much in community at

all times. And so are you, Maggie. And I wanna

talk about the merging of your worlds together.

So Maggie, you have literally changed how people

see nonprofit communities. So when they walk into

your restaurant, there's a social worker. That

social worker is engaging people around homelessness,

mental health, it's making the environment friendly.

There's so many layers to that, I've never seen

a restaurant where there was a social worker inside.

When you hire, everyone that's an employee comes

from different class backgrounds. So you have

everyone from a chef who's well trained to a chef

that learned and came to the ring. So with all

of these different nuances to nonprofits that

you're creating for that target audience of the

under house. How are you? Help us understand.

What should be the future of nonprofits as it's

trying to brace for this crisis that is, what

trends should we expect to hope for in that space?

MAGGIE: Yeah, we definitely have to hope for it

and we definitely have to lean all in, as you

said earlier. I think nonprofits have to work

together. I think we had a place to have been

so fortunate over the years to work and collaborate

with tons of different organizations in the triangle

that are doing really great work. And we found

that we are better, I'm so cliche to say, but

we're better together. We are better when we work

together, we are better when we collaborate together,

we're better when we're able to connect all the

dots rather than being on isolated playing fields,

right? Isolated islands. There is enough money

to go around, so let's share that. Let's connect

each other to different grants that make sense

for a different organization than ours. Let's

connect funders to different organizations that

make more sense. But we have to work together.

So I think that's one, collaboration. I think

we have to listen to what the community really

needs. When we got started as A Place, A Table,

a big reason, I didn't mention earlier, but a

big reason Table even happened and how we created

this hospitable place is because we listened to

the community and what the community really needed.

Sure, we use expertise from the community and

different people, but we really asked folks that

are coming into A Place, A Table every day and

would be coming into A Place, A Table every day,

what do you want this cafe to be? And so I think

we have to listen to our neighbors that are in

our community. What do you want this community

to be? What do you need from our nonprofits? And

we have to be open to changing. And I hate to

say it, pivoting. I hate that word. I really try

hard not to use that word, but it's so true. We

have to be open to changing and growing and evolving

with what's needed because, Lerane, as you said

earlier, that COVID taught us a lot. It's changed

all of our orgs. It's changed all of our businesses.

It's changed our whole county, all of this. So

we have to be open to that change and what the

community really needs for us moving forward.

And I think we, as nonprofits, frankly, we gotta

be better. We gotta pay better. We gotta treat

our employees better. We gotta, and this is no

aside, but there's no hate on other nonprofits,

but there's that nonprofit myth out there. Everyone's

heard, I don't wanna work for a nonprofit because

they don't pay. So we, as nonprofit leaders, have

to pay. We have to treat our employees well. We

have to do things like benefits and sabbatical

policies and really care for our team. You already

heard me harp on it for 30 seconds to probably

three minutes, but we have to do that and we have

to be better.

TERRANCE: Well, for individuals that get a chance

to go into your cafe.

MAGGIE: Our cafe.

TERRANCE: Our cafe. Our cafe. There's several

things that you see. First, when you walk up to

the door, there's someone that's already there

to say hello. They're not saying just hello to

me, but they're saying hello to the unhoused,

but they're saying their name. They know that

human being. So you don't need a home to be known

or seen, so that's visible right at the door before

you get there. Everyone is given the tour. This

is how you order. Everyone. If you have a backpack

with all your items that you own in that backpack,

or you come with a briefcase, you're given a brief

on how to order, or be in this space. Then when

you get to the cash register, you look at the

menu, you see what you like, you get to the cash

register. There's no pressure at the point of

ordering. And usually when you have to register,

there's a moment of, do I have enough money? That

question is there, do I have enough money? Even

if you have enough money, for some reason, the

question is, but you have allowed for your process

to minimize the weight of that moment. And so

you have customers that are routine customers

that don't even have a home that they go to, but

you are a stop in their week. So you do a good

job at not just... Giving good food and hiring

good people. But your process is deliberate and

it creates dignity for everybody in that space.

And when I hear you, Lorraine, talk about housing,

you're talking just as aggressively about that

$3 million home as you are about the $100,000

home. And you're like, we need all of them. And

so you've both been just as deliberate in making

sure that dignity was present at all levels. And

I just. I appreciate that you lean and you are

present as human beings in that space because

some of the transactions are. Visual.

MAGGIE: Yeah.

TERRANCE: People can see when Lorraine, when you're

presenting, that this is something that means

something. People can tell, Maggie, when you're

going around and you're hugging people at the

tables and you're going around and your staff

is smiling and they're remembering names. I even

remember a young lady that would bring her child

and they would come and it was, this was their

lunchtime, their family lunchtime. So I just appreciate

the presence that you have in your spaces and

that you bring all of you and not just a transaction.

The transaction that I see is that I could be

you and you could be me. And there's no different

between the two. And have been. Yes.

LORENA: Some of us, yeah.

TERRANCE: Yes. And have been, yeah. So with all

the work that we talked about and the conversation

that we walked through, there's still some listeners

that don't feel empowered to lean into this space.

Lorraine, what advice would you give to that listener

that Maggie will follow you? What advice would

you give to that listener who's at home in their

living room, they just, they care about housing

or they're experiencing homelessness. What advice

do you get them to feel empowered to activate

and be present in this?

LORENA: I think just lean into your passion and

just start. Just start somewhere. Talk to someone,

start. I mean, and this is one of my favorite

things about where I am right now. It's great

to be successful just in general, but it's really

great when you know that you can be that, you

can be the person who that little girl on that

cot, like I used to be, can hear my story and

know that she could sit in this chair. Right,

because I didn't know that at that time. I just

wanted to do something. I didn't have anyone to

look to that was another little black girl who

wanted to fix a problem for the world or the,

I mean, I want the world, but I got a community

right now. I want to fix it for everybody, but

I got the community. I didn't have that example.

So the really cool part, I think about, big part

about what I do that I think is really cool is

I get to be that example. But the reality, so

when you said, I could be you, you could be me,

that goes both ways. Like I have been and they

can be. That's good. Right? And so, I mean, you

just got to start. If it's something that you're

really interested in and you're passionate about,

just start. There are good people who will be

willing. You got to, you started a whole restaurant

by just talking to the community and then finding

people who are smart in different respects of

what you would need to start the business and

boom, look what you're doing. I lead very much

in the same space. I firmly believe in finding

people smarter than me and getting out of their

way. Like my job is to do overall strategy and

get the political will to do the good things for

the community, get them the resources and get

out of their way.

MAGGIE: So find somebody who's really smart,

LORENA: who knows the stuff that you want to learn

and just sit down and talk to them and listen.

There are a lot of great agencies in our community

doing really cool stuff. And most executive directors

like Maggie will be happy to talk to almost anyone.

So I think just reach out.

TERRANCE: I'm just gonna make it, I mean.

MAGGIE: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, she nailed it.

I got nothing. No, I always have something. No,

I think also on top of all that is get uncomfortable.

Like put yourself in uncomfortable spaces. Put

yourself in spaces with people who are different

than you and learn and educate yourself and show

up. I think what you said just start, right? Like

also show up. Show up to meetings that you need

to be at or and listen, but then use your voice

when you see fit. But yeah, get uncomfortable

and just be present. And I think if you need something

really easy and tangible, it's start volunteering

at an organization. Like show up in an organization

that you're passionate about and just start to

your point.

TERRANCE: Now this final question is how can they

find Lorena?

LORENA: Oh, let me give you your phone number.

TERRANCE: My number is...

LORENA: I'm so easy to find. You can literally

Google a name, you know. But my email is l-o-r-e-n-a

dot m-c-d-o-w-e-l-l at wake.gov. You can email

me. I reach out to everybody. I respond. You can

Google me. You can get my email, my Wake County

cell phone. Most people do. Call me and email

me. But most of the folks who work for Wake County

are really, really accessible. So you just need

to reach out. Yeah.

MAGGIE: Can't even imagine how many calls you

get a day.

LORENA: Oh my gosh.

MAGGIE: Yes, yeah, come see us. You know, come

give us feedback. Come chat with us, come meet

with us. I am, yes, you can find us online at

tablerally.org. You can visit us on social media

if you're on social media. Chat GPT if you're

on chat GPT. But Maggie at tablerally.org. Again,

all that's online though, but would love for people

to come to Raleigh and meet with us.

TERRANCE: That was awesome. And again, thank you,

Lorena and Maggie, for being here. It's a pleasure.

Please look up these individuals. They are doing

some amazing things, not just in Raleigh, but

Maggie just held. Play What You Can Cafe Conference

here. And Lorraine has won many awards for the

work that she's doing. My teens. Her teens.

LORENA: We are we.

TERRANCE: So again, please Google Maggie and Lorena

and follow their work. Even though they have accomplished

so much, they have a vision for five years out

for what they're going to do. And so again, I

wanted to thank you so much for taking the time

to hang with us today, sharing your thoughts and

knowledge and opinions on the matters that are

local and empower people to really take control

of their local spaces. Again, this was edited

and produced by Air Fluence, and thank you for

joining us on Illogical by Truth. Thank you.